Maybe we are. I was unable to find "button group" in your post. The only thing besides the text was two ?? in the upper left corner of the screen.

I'm a perverse old f... and not always wise, but you gave me good advise and some good information (can't use button groups in designer)

As an 80 old engineer my main thrust is setting up a standard user interface suitable for a wide range of programs where a new user, who knows his/her field, can learn to use it in a day or so. I would like to have all screen functions in the designer or not use the designer at all.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your help.