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Thread: [DevQt] General discussion

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Hi boys!
    You don't want any help from members of the female gender?
    This forum has them, you know!

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyGeek
    You don't want any help from members of the female gender?
    This forum has them, you know!
    Females... i heard about that rumor... like hobits... or elves... ;-)
    Next time start writing in pink or something

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Quote Originally Posted by elcuco
    Females... i heard about that rumor... like hobits... or elves... ;-)
    Next time start writing in pink or something
    Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side, young Padawan!

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    A few screenshots would be nice, and what about KDevelop? I'm sure they will like some competition but it's a lot to bite off....

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Oh, cripes! No wonder you're making an IDE. They took it out of 4.0! Nooooooo

    Well, I guess you better hurry up and finish it then
    My philosophy is: If you can use a free, open-source alternative: do it. And if you can't, pretend it's free and open-source and hope you don't get caught.

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Quote Originally Posted by michel
    Oh, cripes! No wonder you're making an IDE. They took it out of 4.0!
    There never was an IDE in Qt. Designer 3 is not an IDE (but it's often confused as being such).

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Quote Originally Posted by wysota
    There never was an IDE in Qt. Designer 3 is not an IDE (but it's often confused as being such).
    Well there sort of was. The Designer had project management and a built in text editor. It lacked integrated compiling and debugging, which i guess you could argue is what constitutes an IDE. The editor and project manager have since been removed in Qt4.x.
    Plan? There ain't no plan!

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Johan Thelin added the possibility to compile directly from Designer to make it work more like an IDE. But let's be honest, without this and class management, we can't say it was an IDE. The editor was so simple, it didn't give any tools to work with the code (except syntax highlighting and code completion).

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Quote Originally Posted by wysota
    "QT"? Because the latter has nothing to do with this site
    What is QT then?
    Penguin #395953 using Qt for open-source development on X11 using C++ and
    Python via PyQt

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    QuickTime.

    .. and it's funny seeing people discussing about a non existing project.
    If you want this to get up, open a site, svn and start developing.

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    Default Re: Bumblebees on the road again!

    Quote Originally Posted by jamadagni
    What is QT then?
    Shortcut for QuickTime?

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    What is the purpose to create new IDE from beginning? There are hundreds of attemps to create new IDE but no one is finished. Why emacs or vi are worse? I think that it will be better if one will try to create a perfect tool for refactoring purposes. May be it will be better to make Qt support in emacs?

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    You may look at http://www.volkoeditor.com. It is being developed with use of Qt library. It have GNU license. May be you should start from this one because of some fatures are already implemented there.

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by vitaly
    What is the purpose to create new IDE from beginning? There are hundreds of attemps to create new IDE but no one is finished. Why emacs or vi are worse? I think that it will be better if one will try to create a perfect tool for refactoring purposes. May be it will be better to make Qt support in emacs?
    I think elsewhere fmc had mentioned the main reason for this as being a need to learn the Qt library. And yes, there are editors already which are great for writing source code in. The problem is finding one which is tightly integrated and geared specifically towards Qt development rather than a full-featured source code text editor which maybe has the ability to do debugging output (like VolkoEditor). Does VE let you view the class hierarchy of the program? Does it let you view signals and slots? I wouldn't know. There's too many problems trying to compile it on my machine using FreeBSD 6.0 and Qt 4.1 (about three "ISO C++ forbids...blahblah" errors, several structs used which aren't in any of the includes he put in the headers, and a Server.cpp that says:

    Qt Code:
    1. #ifdef Q_WS_WIN
    2.  
    3. #include <utime.h>
    4. #include <stdlib.h>
    5. #include <winsock2.h>
    6.  
    7. #define sleep(x) _sleep(x)
    8.  
    9. const int MAXHOSTNAMELEN = 256;
    10.  
    11. #else // UNIX
    12.  
    13. #include <netdb.h>
    14. #include <unistd.h>
    15. #include <utime.h>
    16. #include <rpc/types.h> // MAXHOSTNAMELEN
    17. #endif // Q_WS_WIN
    To copy to clipboard, switch view to plain text mode 

    which assumes that if one isn't using Windows, then MAXHOSTNAMELEN will be in rpc/types.h even though: 1) afaik this is only true for Sun and Linux; and 2) it would make more sense to just write

    Qt Code:
    1. #include <utime.h> // why does he include it twice in both the if and else statements?
    2.  
    3. #ifdef Q_WS_WIN
    4. #include <stdlib.h>
    5. #include <winsock2.h>
    6. #define sleep(x) _sleep(x)
    7. #else
    8. #include <netdb.h>
    9. #include <unistd.h>
    10. #include <rpc/types.h>
    11. #ifndef MAXHOSTNAMELEN
    12. #define MAXHOSTNAMELEN 256
    13. #endif
    14. #endif
    To copy to clipboard, switch view to plain text mode 

    ). BTW, there's another conversation in these DevQt threads about why it shouldn't use Regexps for syntax highlighting. Afaict from the source code for VE, it uses them exclusively for doing this. DevQt's syntax highlighter is still full of bugs, but I'll be willing to bet €1.000.000 when it's finished it will be done highlighting the code much faster than VolkoEdit.
    My philosophy is: If you can use a free, open-source alternative: do it. And if you can't, pretend it's free and open-source and hope you don't get caught.

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by michel
    I think elsewhere fmc had mentioned the main reason for this as being a need to learn the Qt library. And yes, there are editors already which are great for writing source code in. The problem is finding one which is tightly integrated and geared specifically towards Qt development rather than a full-featured source code text editor which maybe has the ability to do debugging output (like VolkoEditor).
    What is integration with Qt? Modern projects may use more that one language and library. If you create "tightly integrated with Qt" editor, you will feel some difficulties with other languages and libraries.

    Does VE let you view the class hierarchy of the program?
    I don't know. I think no. But DevQT doesn't support it. It is complex enought. You possibly should create C++ parser to manage class hierarchy. It is difficult enought. If you create such parser you may implement some refactoring tools (look at Fauler's book about refactoring).

    Does it let you view signals and slots?
    What do you mean?

    I wouldn't know. There's too many problems trying to compile it on my machine using FreeBSD 6.0 and Qt 4.1 ...
    May be. It is in stage of development.


    BTW, there's another conversation in these DevQt threads about why it shouldn't use Regexps for syntax highlighting. Afaict from the source code for VE, it uses them exclusively for doing this. DevQt's syntax highlighter is still full of bugs, but I'll be willing to bet €1.000.000 when it's finished it will be done highlighting the code much faster than VolkoEdit.
    Highlight is one of hundreds features which are really needed. The editor with best highlight engine but without some other features is useless. I use emacs. I've no problems with highlighting. And I'm happy with it.

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    What is the Point of DevQt?
    kdevelop will be ported to windows once the kdelibs are and i doubt DevQt will be able to compete.
    it would be much better to help the kdevelop team...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertolt Brecht
    What is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by vitaly
    What is integration with Qt? Modern projects may use more that one language and library. If you create "tightly integrated with Qt" editor, you will feel some difficulties with other languages and libraries.
    An IDE with Qt integration doesn't mean "Use only qt libs or else your program will break." It means the environment is specifically set up to be efficient for Qt developers who are, 99% of the time, making Qt programs. I don't use KDevelop, but I'm sure you could make Tcl/Tk programs with absolutely no Qt/KDE code or libraries included in them whatsoever if you want. It doesn't mean KDevelop isn't tightly integrated with KDE/Qt.

    I don't know. I think no. But DevQT doesn't support it. It is complex enought. You possibly should create C++ parser to manage class hierarchy. It is difficult enought. If you create such parser you may implement some refactoring tools (look at Fauler's book about refactoring).
    Of course it's complex. But then, MS Visual C++ wasn't written in a few weeks (or months) either. So what is the profit of pointing out what DevQt does or doesn't support yet? How long have they been working on it? A month? Less? It's like going to the construction site of an apartment building, looking at the big sandy hole full of wet cement that will be the basement, and saying, "God, I wouldn't want to live here. This place doesn't even have central heating or cable television."

    >> Does it let you view signals and slots?
    What do you mean?
    Are you really asking me what signals and slots are, or just wondering what I mean exactly by "view?" As I am not really part of the DevQt project you would have to ask them what they have in mind. But personally, I liked the way they were handled in the old 3.x Designer more than they are in 4.1 Designer. FYI, I was being rhetorical. VE will let you view the source code for signals and slots, but it certainly won't know what they are or care. Just like it won't care what qmake is, what a qmake project is, what moc or uic are, etc. That's the problem.

    Highlight is one of hundreds features which are really needed. The editor with best highlight engine but without some other features is useless. I use emacs. I've no problems with highlighting. And I'm happy with it.
    Yes, that is precisely my point. Other than the highlighter being currently "better" than DQt's (that is, it works without bugs; when DQt's is fixed of the bugs, VE's regexps scanner will probably be left in the dust), what possible benefit would there to be to using VolkoEditor to create a Qt IDE? It's little more than Kate with FTP support, and unlike VE at least Kate and FTP compile on my system without me having to modify the source code in 4 files. On the other hand, DevQt already has some support for qmake .pro files. VE doesn't even know what they are. To go and make a new IDE around VE would be more work at this point than for fmc/Cesar/et al to just continue with what they have already done.

    SoulRebel:
    What is the Point of DevQt?
    kdevelop will be ported to windows once the kdelibs are and i doubt DevQt will be able to compete.
    it would be much better to help the kdevelop team...
    Perhaps the most obvious reason to have a Qt IDE and not rely on KDevelop is simply that KDevelop requires you have the KDE libraries installed on your computer. Qt in itself does not. All it requires of you is that you have an X-Server running that it can connect to and have Qt installed where it can find it. I have KDE installed, but what if I change my mind later because I want something that takes up less space? Well, I guess I have to go back to programming Qt applications in a text editor because everybody who had the idea to make a Qt IDE which doesn't require anything but Qt took your advice and joined the KDevelop team instead. Then I get the idea to make my own IDE for Qt, someone tells me to just use KDevelop, and the whole cycle starts all over again.

    Asking why to make a Qt IDE and not just use KDevelop begs the question why should anybody make programs in Qt and not just use the KDE API (it also begs the question why anybody should have invented the automobile instead of working with horse breeders to create better horses)? Oh wait, that's right! Not everybody wants to make a program which only works with KDE. By the same logic, not everybody wants to use a program (KDevelop) which only works with KDE. An IDE which only needs the Qt libraries to run can be used by somebody using GNOME or some other desktop manager for X, a raw X-server without a desktop, MS Windows, MacOS, or whatever else you can manage to build the Qt library for and have the resources to load the IDE. KDevelop needs BOTH Qt AND KDE, which means even if you don't want to use KDE you have to have the libraries installed regardless. That's very Microsoft-esque to me. I don't think the KDevelop team's intentions are so malevolent, mind you. It's just that KDevelop is meant to make developing under KDE--particularly programs using the KDE API--easier. It's not meant to be a complete solution for everybody everywhere. And if you want to make Qt programs but don't want to install KDE (or don't have the space for it), it definitely isn't the solution for you.

    As for the comment on "not being able to compete," not everything in life is a competition. It is often the case, particularly in science, that multiple people, or multiple groups of people, are developing the same or similar ideas completely without interest in what the other is doing, or how much more "popular" the other person/group's work is compared to their own. Once in university I made my own database program with its own storage scheme, compression algorithms, etc. I didn't do it because I wanted to make money off it and compete against MySQL. I did it for the benefit of the learning experience and a sense of accomplishment. It is the same reason people paint pictures or build little model airplanes or do almost any other hobby or study. Sure, millions of people already do it too, and most do it better than they ever will, but that doesn't mean there is still no reward for doing it. Another example: I use FreeBSD because I like it and I didn't like the Linux distros I tried in university in the late 90s. But I don't want everyone who uses Linux to be destroyed or to stop using what they like to use and what is best for them. They aren't my "competitor" just because they like to use something else. BTW, using the same argumentum ad populum, since all of the *nix users combined can't "compete" with the number of Microsoft users, I guess we should all disregard our own personal wants and needs and collectively install Windows XP instead.

    PS: Love the Brecht quote. I am listening to the 1930 recording of Die Dreigroschenoper on CD, where Brecht sings the Moritat himself, as we speak. He sounds like a dying cat.

    Soldaten wohnen
    auf den Kanonen!
    My philosophy is: If you can use a free, open-source alternative: do it. And if you can't, pretend it's free and open-source and hope you don't get caught.

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by michel
    not everything in life is a competition

    i know and i didnt mean that. (although there are people that try to convince one that that is all that life is about)
    Quote Originally Posted by michel
    I did it for the benefit of the learning experience
    thats why i code too
    Quote Originally Posted by michel
    or whatever else you can manage to build the Qt library for ; KDevelop needs BOTH Qt AND KDE
    yes thats the way it is right now, but i as soon as kdelibs-4.0 are out i expect them to be more portable and slimmer, in the end they will be as portable as the qtlibs. also i do not think that somebody developing apllications cannot spare a couple of megs for kdelibs.
    btw. there was a (afaik refused) google summer of code project of porting kdevelop to either kdelibs-svn or qtlibs-4.x (and removing dependency on kdebase and other uneccessary stuff). nevertheless this will come and it does provide much more features than devqt can possibly provide then...
    i am not saying this because i am against choice or because i think devqt "can't stand the competiton" (the post was over-simple); i just think it would benefit all, if human resources were organised in a better way. now of course "better" is a very personal view, but lets look a kdevelop' qt features now:
    - c++ qt support
    - python qt support
    - ruby qt support
    - java qt support
    - support for perl-qt-bindings is being worked on i think
    - seamless integration of the designer
    when will devqt have these features just for qt?
    in addition kdevelop supports tons of other languages, now you might say: "i only want to code qt-c++" but sooner or later you might want to try other qt bindings or kdelibs (after all it really is only additional classes for qt), or maybe even a totally different language; then you will have to get used to a completely different environment.
    i dont want to say: dont do it, devqt-team, i just think it would be better for everyone if they tried to organise.
    sometimes forks of projects are right, but if they only dublicate work that is already done, i regard them as wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by michel
    I use FreeBSD
    me too
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertolt Brecht
    What is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?

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    Default Re: [DevQt] General discussion

    There is a post on here somewhere, you will have to look it up because I don't remember what thread it was in (maybe newbie, I think I told some newbie what he should and shouldn't try to do when he first learns Qt, and then fmc described the IDE and how it was a learning experience), where fmc stated the reasons why they started this project. I am not sure why the others are helping, but I assume it is either because they have a similar intention or simply because they consider it a good idea and want it to be realized. Either way, if somebody wants to do something, even if it's already been done before, sometimes it's best just to not tell them they can't or shouldn't do it and try to be supportive. It's quite possible DevQt will never be a rival for KDevelop, and it's also quite possible that it will end up like thousands of other projects on SourceForge, Freshmeat, etc. that were some college kid's two month long excitement that spiral down into a project that never reached even a beta version. But the mental exercise, the personal satisfaction and sense of achievement that comes from actually doing something instead of just thinking about it, and the experience that can be used later on more serious projects (in any field)--imo the sum of these parts is greater than the whole, regardless of whether or not anything of practical use to the public comes out of it. As for joining an existing project team, sometimes projects need volunteers, and sometimes they already have plenty and only want you to submit bug reports or people to write technical documentation for them. Maybe the people involved in this want something more than that.
    My philosophy is: If you can use a free, open-source alternative: do it. And if you can't, pretend it's free and open-source and hope you don't get caught.

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    Default A Question

    Sorry, if I was missing something, but I'm just wondering.
    The Qt4 IDE at http://frenchbreaker.free.fr/qt4ds/index.php
    compiles fine is GPLed and looks really promising. Why did you feel the need to start a second project with exactly the same rationale? I mean it's perfectly legitimate to do so but, if the aim is to have a nice Qt4 IDE, it seems a bit unpractical (at least to me). Or did you contact the other project and the maintainer was unwilling to accept support and cooperation?

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